The most infamous murder case in the history of Vancouver, British Columbia was unearthed on January 15, 1953 when the tiny skeletons of two children were found under leaves and a woman's "oilskin" coat deep in Stanley Park. For 45 years these children were thought to be a boy and a girl under 10 years of age. Dubbed the "Babes in the Woods," there was renewed interest in 1998 when DNA testing on the teeth of the skeletons revealed they were actually half-brothers. Can you help identify them?
(Top) Western entrance to Reservoir Trail (near hairpin turn on Park drive). Skeletons were found 50 yards from Reservoir Trail and 100 yards from Park Drive. (Bottom) Near area where skeletons were found (2003 photograph).
posted by coldcase @ 12:50 PM
33 Comments:
if one reviews the case of the babes in the woods...you can see that Elsa their aunt or family friend did not mean the children any home that day
Hi Anonymous,
Unfortunately, I have never been able to review any official police documents. The information I have is from old newspapers, internet forums, public presentations,a few conversations with Brian Honeybourn and one brief exchange with Dr. David Sweet (UBC) who tested the boy's DNA. I never came across any aunt named Elsa. Where did you get this name?
When you say Elsa, their aunt did not mean the children any (harm?), how do you explain the lethal hatchet wounds to their skull? Or, do you mean she never started out to harm the children, but something happened to cause her to do so?
To find Elsa..I needed to find a German speaking woman living in the west end of Vancouver for the year 1947--1948, she needed to be of an age to have a niece the right age to have children the ages of the ones that died..It took eight hours @ the archives going up and down the streets from 1946 to1948 to locate a person who could walk two kids from comox street around the park and back before dark..Elsa dies in Essondale in 1972.She is well dressed,may of been drunk..or going crazy in the woods.The murder weapon is in the lunch kit. found by the yougest child. Its a dirty, rusted and worm holded tool, not a weapon to kill. She did not know it was in her hand when she was distracted by the couple, and the kids fled into the woods..she is dressed to the hilt, but she is mad..angry and overwhelmed by the woods.
salty-walt@hotmail.com
She is found by the Teacher and her Husband out of her mind on a park bench at beaver lake...if they had a car..the husband would of never found her..but he walked from the west end and heard her cries. She does not jump to her death..but heads back to lost lagoon and comox st. There the family swears to never ever speak about the children. If all the family are told that the kids have left with their mother states side. somewhere there is a picture of the kids, the mother and the aunt. I would love to give the kids a name. We both know so many people who wished they could solve this cold case..its not about the money..its about righting a bad thing and giving the kids their names back...its no longer about justice..or money..but for me proving that I have a gift or am mad ????
Anonymous I think ur insane. I think your a family member and you know who the kids are and you know who did it...Or your just strange and like to make things up..
When viewing the pictures, were the children found on the left or right hand side of the trail? Is there a marker or any plaque honouring the children at the site?
I'm assuming the couple at Beaver Lake said "the woman" had a German accent(?) How did Comox Street become a certainty? Was this the only street that had a German speaking resident at the time? Do you have an address on Comox Street? Isn't it a stretch to assume there was a pact where family members agreed to never speak of the children? and why are you assuming this was an Aunt and not the Mother?
Coldcase: I wrote 6 & 7 (above). I was born in Vancouver in 1948 & have heard about this case since I was a child. Today is Easter Sunday, 2011 and I wanted to visit the site where these dear children died and to leave flowers. I had imagined there'd be a memorial or something documenting that they had lived and died; I saw nothing, therefore the question (6, above): IS there a marker I missed? From the beginning of the trail (Causeway/Park Drive), is the site to the left or the right and how far along the trail? I find it sad that so little is written about this case -- just repeats of the original news story -- and that nobody has come forward -- a cousin, a niece/nephew, somebody associated with the family to give these children long deserved and overdue dignity.
Vicki
April 26, 20011
Re: Comment @ 10:14 AM
I don't know the exact location where the boy's skeletons were found.
However, if you look at the front page of The Vancouver Province, January 15, 1953 (included on this site), there is a sketch showing the general location. Unfortunately, the copy is not very clear but there is an "X" indicating the site marked directly under the U-turn when you are going up Park Drive(just before you come to the roadway that leads out to the causeway). Sadly, this sketch does not include the trails so it's impossible to determine the exact site.
One reporter described the site as "east of the entrance to the old fish hatchery about 70 metres down a hill toward Burrard Inlet and 15 metres off a trail." (Reservoir Trail?)- see map in Vancouver Sun, July 25, 1952 for location of the fish hatchery (map on this site).
Coldcase
April 26, 2011
Re: Comment @ 11:44 AM about German woman and Comox Street.
The person who posted this information did not offer any proof of this claim about a German woman. I have never heard anything about a German woman or any "person of interest" (as the police like to say) who lived on Comox Street that was related to this story.
Coldcase
April 26, 2011
Re: Comment @ 8:15 PM
Hi Vicki,
Thanks for you interest in this sad story.
There is (or at least was) an unofficial notation on a rock near the site - which I have not been able to find as yet. There is a photo of the notation at Katrina Thorsen's site:
http://katthorsen.wordpress.com/journals/
Katrina is working on a graphic novel about the case.
Coldcase
April 26, 2001
Correction:
Katarina Thorsen, not Katrina.
Coldcase
Hi, Coldcase: Yes, I did see the rock on the Thorsen site, but I think this would be rather like looking for the proverbial needle in a haystack. Actually, I can't believe I went to the trail; it was early and rather spooky. I don't see an X on the Vancouver Sun map...You say: "there is an "X" indicating the site marked directly under the U-turn when you are going up Park Drive(just before you come to the roadway that leads out to the causeway)". This seems to indicate the site is much closer to Park & Causeway -- BETWEEN the path that leads to Resevoir and Park Drive, than off Resevoir Trail. I know it is difficult trying to explain this with the present map but if you can tell me where this X is, i.e. is it to the left of the house, above, to the right, I'd be most appreciative. It's such a tragic story. Don't you think its rather unfortunate that there isn't a memorial or would this be considered morbid and tasteless? Have you checked out the "sleuth" section of the Facebook Babes in the Woods site?
Vicki
April 27, 2011
Hi Vicki,
Re: your 7:18 PM comment:
Sorry, I should have explained the "X" is partially obliterated because of the photocopying and the condition of the newspaper article. What remains of the "X" looks like 2 arrow tips directly under the U-curve and pointing toward the U-curve. Beaver Lake is shown beneath the "X" and lies slightly to the right of the "X." It appears the "X" ON THE SKETCH is about 1mm from the U-curve and 3 mm from Beaver Lake (I don't know what the actual distance would be).
I looked over several articles to see if the locations of the skeletons is described more precisely. Here are some of the descriptions:(see other comments below as I am running out of space)
Vancouver Sun, Jan. 15, 1953
"Actual discovery of the remains was...100 yards off the main park driveway and about 500 yards from the causeway."
Coldcase
April 27, 2011 (continued)
Vancouver Province, Jan. 15, 1953
"...the skeletons were found 150 yards from the top of the hairpin bend on the main Park drive, 300 yards short of the junction with the the Lion's gate bridge road."
Vancouver Sun, Jan. 16, 1953
"...skeletons lay in the thick undergrowth at a point 100 yards from the upper hairpin turn of Park drive where it winds up from the waterfront to the Lion's Gate Bridge commencement. They were 50 yards from the reservoir trail and only 300 yards from the bridge roadway itself."
Coldcase
April 27, 2011 (continued)
Vancouver Sun, April 15, 1953
"...the scene of the crime just east of the entrance to the old fish hatchery near the bridge causeway."
The crime scene came to light when Stanley Park forester Albert A. Tong and his men were clearing the side hill that slips down the inlet..."
Coldcase
April 27, 2011 (continued)
Vancouver Province, Mar.20, 1998
Note: the sketch with the "X" is also located in this article on pg. A3
Vancouver Sun, Dec. 27, 2000
Detective Don MacKay's hypothesis:
"The woman then spread her cheap fur coat over the little bodies and ...dashed straight to Burrard Inlet, 200 yards away."
Most of the newer articles just describe the site as "in dense brush near Beaver Lake" although the sketch seems to indicate the site of the skeletons was much nearer the U-turn on Park Drive.
Vicki, I'm not sure where the "X" would be in location to the fish hatchery (i.e., "the house")but I assume it would be to the right (i.e., east)since one reporter described the site of the skeletons as "east of the entrance to the old fish hatchery and about 70 metres down a hill toward Burrard Inlet." If I ever find out exactly where the skeletons were found, I'll post it.
Coldcase
April 27, 2011
Vicki,
I have seen Websleuths on Facebooks "Babes" site.
Re: a memorial to the boys. There are memorials to lots of deceased people around Vancouver and even a few in Stanley Park so I don't think it would be morbid or tasteless. I would worry about vandalism of the memorial if it was located near the site where their skeletons were found.
Coldcase
Hi, Cold: forgive delay but my posts were rejected yesterday; I kept getting an invitation to create a blog. I appreciate your patience and think I have a better idea as to where this site is located. If you'll note, Katarina's reference to the stone says she left it at the "supposed site" (words to that effect); it seems odd to me that Vancouver's most enduring mystery is made all the more mysterious by requiring a Sherpa guide to pinpoint this history. Without the required coordinates it seems a matter of guesswork. You say you've not found the stone but are you convinced you were in the actual spot? Some rotter could have taken the stone, of course...and yes, you're right: a memorial would likely elicit the desire for someone to further descecrate these poor children.
Vicki
Hi, again, Cold: If you're a Vancouverite, you might remember Joe Swan; I remember his columns in the WestEnder and his article about this case; I'm going to try and find it, either by going to the W/E archives or checking out his books if they're still in print. Honeybourne rules out the Mission connection -- presumably this eliminates the hitchhiking story (?) I mean, just how much documentation is there to this story? If you and I took a walk through the zoo area, Beaver Lake, etc. etc. etc. are we going to remember a Mom and two kids YEARS later? I just wonder if there was fanciful recollection or a desire to be part of the story? So LITTLE is actually available online, other that regurgitation of the Sun article. I wish Mr.Honeybourne hadn't dropped off the "sleuth" site; I'd love to ask him a couple of things or to respond to some on the posts he had to endure on that site.
Vicki
P.S. a stupid question: did you create this blog?
Cold,Cold,Cold: I'm going to SCREAM.
see:
http://katthorsen.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/26-epilogue.pdf
Isn't she referencing the opposite side of the park????? not the Stanley Park Causeway/fish hatchery side, but the Pipeline Road side?
Vicki
April 29, 2011
Re: Comment 12:45 AM
Hi Vicki,
Was I convinced I was in the actual spot?
No, I wandered up and down Reservoir Trail (and off the trail). But, "talking" to you and reading Katarina's article again has given me a better idea where the rock memorial might be. I may make another attempt to find it in the near future.
Part of the problem of identifying the location of the skeletons may be that some people confuse the 'Babes' murders with other murders in the park. I was talking to a former policewoman a few years ago and described the 'Babes" case to her. She told me she had been in a search party in Stanley Park looking for bones/evidence in this case. It puzzled me because she was only about 60 years old. I finally realized she was talking about the two-13 year old boys that ran away from a foster home and disappeared from the West End in 1989. Their remains were later found in Stanley Park. I don't know if you've seen the Cold Case Files episode: The Hunter Homicides;The Skulls in Stanley Park. The second part of this episode describes both the Babes in the Woods case and the 1989 West End case.In this film you see people searching for evidence in the 1989 case in the woods west of the Reservoir Trail/Pipeline Road intersection(which isn't too far from the area Katarina and Solvig were walking).
Coldcase
April 29, 2011
Re: 9:30 AM Comment:
Hi Vicki,
I read Katarina's article 3 times. She seems to be indicating the skeletons were found "near a large dead tree" somewhere in the area (looking at the map she provided) above the words "Reservoir Trail." In other words, in that area bordered by Chickadee Trail on the top left, Eagle Trail on the top right and Reservoir Trail on the bottom. She writes that they parked at/near the intersection of Chickadee Trail and Pipeline Road (see the #17 on her map - about halfway between 4.0 kms and 4.5 kms - the thick vertical black line is Pipeline Road although it's not named on this map). They walk along Chickadee Trail, Solvig stops and tilts head to her left , then continue to Eagle Trail and walk along Eagle Trail (not sure how far) and then Katarina points to the her right(to the west on the map)at the large dead tree which would be in the general direction of the U-curve (see the map again: the U-curve starts above the C in Chickadee Trail and continues on to where traffic comes off the causeway into the park.) Now, the sketch of the location of the skeletons in the Vancouver Province, January 15, 1953 seems to indicate that the remains were found somewhere (use Katarina's map again) above the word "Trail" in Hanson Trail (see bottom of map). It's impossible to tell which side of Reservoir Trail they were found since Reservoir Trail is not drawn on the 1953 Province sketch. But, if the "large dead tree" that Katarina pointed to was in the area near the R in Reservoir Trail (on her map), these sites might not be too far apart since many of the maps of Stanley Park vary to some degree.
Vicki, I hope you can follow what I said because I'm jumping back and forth between the map Katarina provided and the 1953 sketch. If you have any comments or questions, feel free.
Coldcase
April 29, 2011
Re: Comment @ 8:40 AM
Joe Swan? I met him just briefly at the Police Museum when I took some photographs (some on blog). He seemed reluctant to give me permission to take any pictures and gave me a bit of a 3rd degree why I was interested in the case. Maybe, I looked guilty.
Possible witness (woman remembering a woman and 2 kids years later). It does make a person wonder, doesn't it? There was that female "witness" who apparently broke up with her Air Force (?) fiancee that day and wrote about it in her diary. There was the loggers who gave a woman and 2 boys wearing flying helmets a drive from Mission, B.C to Vancouver (and apparently drove them through Stanley Park first). There was the schoolteacher, Mr. Smith, who spotted a woman with 2 "children" walking near Brockton Point. He apparently took notice because one of the kids was banging a hatchet on a metal railing as they walked. He later claimed to see the woman (missing her coat and a shoe) - and a man - at Beaver Lake. Unfortunately, he never mentioned which shoe was missing or at least the newspaper never printed which shoe was missing - which might have given more credibility if he named the correct foot.
I was exchanging emails with Brian Honeybourn for a while. I met him briefly at a couple of his presentations. The last time I contacted him was around the time of the Vancouver Olympics when an American newspaper did a story about him and the 'Babes.'
Yes, I created the blog. I never meant for the blog to "go up on the net" at this time (for various reasons) but Google put it on the net on their own. Maybe if you leave a blog dormant that's what happens.
Coldcase
Cold: I trust you realize I'm not being contrary; I'm hoping we can figure out the location.
From Katarina's article:
"We continue down Eagle Trail.
Against my better judgment, I decide to show her the
crime scene marked by the large dead tree to our right."
The tree "to our right" doesn't suggest they trampled through the forest to get to the tree. Also: from the photograph on your blog,Park Drive is clearly seen. If the site is above the "Trail" in Hanson Trail, Park Drive could not be seen as Park Drive is much higher up on the map...or am I totally out to lunch, here?
Vicki
April 30, 2011
Re: 9:55 AM Comment
Hi Vicki,
No, I don't find your comments contrary at all.
Re: the tree "to our right." It's hard to judge how far to the right she meant: it could be 20 yards to the right or 75 yards to the right or more. It doesn't sound like it was way over there to our right though.
Re: seeing Park Drive from the "crime scene?" You can definitely see Park Drive (including vehicles)in the background of the "crime scene?" photo. Using a map of Stanley Park with a distance scale on it,it appears that Hanson Trail is approximately 165 yards from Park Drive. I imagine the photographer was standing a little over 100 yards from Park Drive when he took the photo(if the skeletons were actually found 100 yards from Park Drive: I think one reporter wrote they were found 150 yards from Park Drive). As I recall though, when you walk from Park Drive to Hanson Trail you walk down a slight grade/slope (I think)so you may not be able to see Park Drive at all from Hanson Trail. So you would be correct.
It's a bit difficult pinpointing an area on a map and then talking about the actual area in the park. For example, when I said the area where the skeletons were found was above the "Trail" in Hanson Trail, I didn't mean they were found above the actual trail but above where the word Trail was written on the map. In this case it kind of works out to the same thing.I hope you know what I mean. I'm getting confused just writing that comment.
Coldcase
Hi, Cold: From the Katarina article, I didn't get the impression they made their way through brush and forest, with machete in hand, to get to the Tree -- it seemed a much more convenient, "to the right"....like: if you cast your gaze over here, you'll see this tree; what do you feel? Ahhhh, semantics and YES, it is an exercise in frustration (for you, I'm sure) to attempt to explain where something is via a map. I trust I don't have you pulling your hair out. Not to sound like a broken record but I still think it is outrageous that a portion of our history is left to "archeology" in order to pay respects. I recall a conversation with my Mother YEARS ago when she said she remembers having seen a wooden marker designating the spot. Did she imagine this? On another note, who is the "Molly", Katarina references?
Cold: I FOUND IT. The rock is there as are other objects. I'm still processing how I feel. I'm not an ultra-religous person but I prayed at the site and had a wee cry on the way back. I just cannot imagine how anyone could do this to a kid, let alone kids. I would appreciate Honeybourne's email address if you have it. If you want, I will take you to the spot.
Vicki
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Hi, Cold: I'm available on Sundays and Mondays only, unless there is a glorious stat in the mix. If my ever faltering memory serves: Katarina said she had been shown the crime scene by an officer who had it shown to him by an original attending officer back in '53. Of course, anything is possible and I'm prepared to be ANNOYED once again. To be honest, I was so discombobulated as to the "geography" (keep in mind I was born here!!!), I'd be completely unable to answer even one of your questions above. I'm just amazed I found anything. Can you contact Katarina for confirmation this was not simply a memorial? I was at the "site" between 9:00-9:30 this morning. We could have crossed paths, as it were. Do you have a bike? This would save our weary old legs a bit.
Vicki
"religious", not "religous"...not that I obsess, or anything (previous post)
May 1,2011
Re: 10:34 AM Comment
Hi Vicki,
Ironically, I walked over to Eagle Trail this morning but I couldn't find the tree. When I got back, I discover you have found it. Well done! Yes, you'll have to take me to the spot. Maybe, in the
next few days.I'm wiped out now from the walk.
In Katarina's article, do you think she feels the tree is more
of a memorial site rather than the actual site where the boy's skeletons were found? I'll have to read it again.
If you think it might be the site where the skeletons were found, does it fit the descriptions of the reporters? For example:
(1)Can you see the U-Curve on Park Drive from the tree?
(2)Is the tree about 100 yards (or 150 yards) from the U-curve
on Park Drive?
(3) Is the tree 50 yards from Reservoir Trail?
(4) Is there another trail 15 yards from the tree?
(5) Is the tree about 300 yards from the road that leads out to the
causeway (i.e., the roadway off the U-Curve on Park Drive)?
Re: Molly: The only time I ever heard of Molly was in Katarina's
article. But, it looks like there has been a lot of material collected on her. I'll see what I can find out.
P.S. Good work in finding that tree. Jane Marple would be proud.
Coldcase
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
So is the site marked, or has it been found? 8/28/12
Post a Comment
<< Home